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BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum
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Luke




Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 9834
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Status: Offline

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:19 am Post subject: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

The Officers are looking for feed back on what people think of the No Recon rule on our Server 1 BF4. What we need is more than I like it or I don't like it. Feed back that explains why you think having Recon or banning Recon helps or hurts our server is what we look for. So please put some thought into your argument.

This is about what is best for the server not about Recon. The argument that if you don't play Recon your vote shouldn't count is not something the officers take seriously. The officers have to look at what is best for the clan as a whole and the server. I ask each member to put their personal feelings on Recon hate or love aside and look at this objectively.

The No Recon rule will stay in place till the officers meet and make a official ruling. This will happen some time after the New Year.

This is only one way we will be taking feed back. We will be holding forums in TS randomly and our doors are open to talk with anyone one on one.

We would love to have feed back from BK and non BK. We want feed back from every member no matter how often you play or what you like to play.  Officers will be strictly enforcing Polite and Friendly rules in this thread.

GOA.Luke*BK*


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Silent_Wolf




Joined: Apr 03, 2010
Posts: 2971
Location: Loveland, Colorado

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:51 am Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

I hope we all will tell it as it is and not make a deal out of this.  Regardless of the out come, I also hope all voices are heard.

I started with BK under two major liked ideas.  

1.) BK has zero tolerance for foul language of any kind.  That makes the game experience very pleasant.

2.) All Weapons and All Perks:  

I was on BK server 1 the other night and with in 2 minutes of being on the server, I was killed 5 times with an rocket launcher of some sort and 4 times by a mortar.  

Now neither of these weapons give their users an advantaged over the others, but they poss the same dangers as the bolt action rifles in the recon class.  

The classes are designed to Ying Yang each other.  In the past when a squad would dominate a name, I would use a bolt action rifle to stop them.

It is my belief that recon class is eliminated because of the bolt action rifles with crouch.  One shot one kill weapons with slow moving targets is too much of a challenge for some.

I vote we leave the Recond class in the server and remove the crouch rule.   This will allow BK to retain the all weapon all perks, and keep a small combat server.





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DELETED




Joined: Nov 27, 2010
Posts: 76


Status: Offline

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 1:15 am Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

Everyone knows my feeling but to those that do not, lets please Keep Recon.
My feelings are that without the recon perks we will lose the main one, a spawn beacon.
I rarely use a bolt action but I use the DMR heavily and a spawn beacon......
If we ban the Recon you might as well kill the crouch server completely as the server will turn into a Mortar and Rocket launcher server.
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Knucklehead




Joined: Jun 06, 2013
Posts: 141
Location: Western NY

Status: Offline

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:58 am Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

I can see both sides of the argument. I have had games where I get so frustrated because I'm being sniped, but on the other hand sometimes I like to do a little sniping myself. Now, I haven't been on in a few weeks but the last time I did play Recon a little, there were some comments made.  I kind of felt like folks were getting mad at me, so I got discouraged and quit sniping. But that's not to say I don't understand the problem. Smaller maps and objective-based game modes really aren't the best for sniping. Sure, it can be done to a degree of success, but for the most part there's no real need to use a weapon capable of killing enemies hundreds of yards away on a map that just doesn't provide that kind of long range environment. I think it would make some weapon types more viable to use, like shotguns and PDWs.

All of that being said, I agree with others who say that if the Recon class is banned from the server, some players will gravitate towards the next best thing..  RPGs, SMAWs, M320s, Mortars, etc. which in my observation are even more prone to draw criticism. Just as an example, I was playing the engineer class one night and was switching between weapons when my primary ran out of ammo. I fired on someone in the heat of battle. It just so happened I had accidentally selected my SMAW instead of my sidearm, and killed another BK member. I forget who it was, but I remember him saying in TS, "Was that necessary?" I felt bad because I'm not the type that runs around with a rocket or grenade launcher, but one kill and I had apparently ruffled some feathers. Something similar happened when I used the XM25 Airburst to kill a sniper who was up on a crane. (Of course in the latter situation I used the XM25 deliberately because the sniper was in a somewhat protected position that was difficult to reach with other weapons.) My point is that although there are circumstances where their use is warranted, those types of weapons tend to really get under people's skin. I think it would be disastrous if this change ends up encouraging the use of these weapons by banning sniper rifles.

I know we can come up with something that is a better solution than removing access to an entire class. What about turning on the kill cam? If we can see where the snipers are, we have a better chance of countering them in my opinion. 9 times out of 10 if you are killed by the other classes, you see them (or at least know where they were) and the kill cam isn't really going to spoil their game because by the time you've spawned again they are likely on the other side of the map. But this would prevent snipers from camping in one spot the entire round. I don't know if kill cam is available in HC mode though, so this may not be an option either.

Or maybe the answer is to make the crouch server non-HC? I've heard that part of the reason crouch servers exist is to slow the action down a little. Normal mode (custom mode with healing turned off?) would indeed do that; sniper rifles would no longer be 1 shot kills which means you would have a reasonable chance of escaping an otherwise certain death. I don't really know if that idea would be popular, but personally I think I like it better than no Recon at all.


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Damon




Joined: Nov 18, 2010
Posts: 398
Location: Florida, USA

Status: Offline

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:55 am Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

When I think of the No Recon rule, I think about the following.

1. The radio beacon is gone. Players must reach locations without the use of a parachute, which means players cannot reach elevated positions that are otherwise unreachable. Also, players are forced to reach locations themselves or spawn on their squad leader (if the game mode allows for it).
2. Motion Sensors, T-UGS, and MAVs are gone. Spotting for teammates who use mortars is more difficult, as one player is no longer an efficient means for spotting enemies across an entire map.
3. The PLD is gone. Players are no longer able to locate enemies across short or long distances, through some cover, in order to kill themselves or spot for others.
4. The bolt-action riles are no longer available for selection/customization at deployment. Some rifles are available for pick-up ingame.

Out of all of these, some players seem to focus on the bolt-action rifle. To me, this is an insignificant change to the gameplay compared to 1, 2, and 3. Instead of a mix of bolt-action and designated marksman rifles, we now see the majority of players using DMRs. It is difficult to escape an attack from a DMR when crossing open areas via crouch movement. When the first bullet lands, you are allowed to run, but your player will stand and die to the second bullet. I've seen this happen first-hand many times. However, there is a chance to escape, because some players are not good at hitting with the second shot. In addition, the scope glare that signals the location of bolt-action rifles is gone for the DMRs. They do not use the same high powered scopes, which are not really needed on the small crouch server game modes to begin with.

Since the removal of the Recon kit, I have seen an escalation in DMR and mortar usage. It also seems like the server is more empty at times than it was previously (before, during, and after Christmas). In my opinion, the gameplay has not improved at all. If anything, it seems worse to me. However, this may be a perception based on the TDM only game modes that cycled for awhile. The current mix of TDM and DOM game modes is better, even if the reintroduction of wide open maps caters more to the camping-with-DMR/mortar style of some players.

I would rather all kits and weapons and gadgets, etc be usable by players. I do not play Recon, but I think it should be there for those who want it. The crouch rule is really the primary draw to this server, for me anyway, so I hope it stays intact. Without the crouch rule, server 1 is very similar to the many existing run & gun servers out there.

I'll be interested to read about the experiences of others, to see what they like or dislike about the change.


Last edited by Damon on Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Luke




Joined: Jul 26, 2007
Posts: 9834
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Status: Offline

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:01 am Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

Just to be clear BF4 server 1 has more then doubled in activity since the change. I see posting that they think its less active but according to badkon numbers have more then doubled.


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Damon




Joined: Nov 18, 2010
Posts: 398
Location: Florida, USA

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:59 am Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

Luke, I'm glad the metrics show the opposite of what I've seen. I'm now wondering if it was just my perception when the TDM China Rising only maps were on rotation, and it seemed emptier to me. Either way, glad I'm wrong about that. That alone is a strong reason to keep the No Recon rule, I think. Regardless of how I feel about it personally. A 100%+ boost in activity is a pretty great thing.

[UPDATE]
After reading TwoFour's reply, and checking GameTracker myself, it is clear to me that my perception of the server activity was not incorrect. The Server Rank steadily declined from November to December, and continues to decline in January. While I wouldn't trust my perception alone, because I am not always on the server, I trust GameTracker information. Server Rank is based on the popularity of the server. The players who have been on the server for the past month is what is considered when calculating Server Rank. Basically, the more players who come to the server, the better the Server Rank will be.



While the decision to keep the No Recon rule may not be affected by server population, I think it's important to know the server population. I honestly think the combination of crouching and the wide open maps has more to do with server population than the No Recon rule. I'm surprised that one of the least open maps (Flood Zone) hasn't been seen in the rotation for awhile. However, I could easily be in the minority here. It's possible that many people like open maps, like using DMRs and mortars, and are happy with the server as is.


Last edited by Damon on Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Holgaph




Joined: Dec 29, 2013
Posts: 4


Status: Offline

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:37 am Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

Greetings BK,

 I have been a frequent guest on your crouch servers over the past several years.

 I am finding the results of no Recon class to have improved the playability of the crouch server dramatically.  ( With the exception of the recent period where only TDM maps were offered. )   I absolutely despise "snipers", and a large part of my game play used to involve various methods and planned methods in which to wipe them out.  ( Mortar, flank , C4, flank and torch, distract them with an MAV while teammates mow them down, etc.) However, I do not believe this change is the best solution nor is fair to your members and guests who like the gadgets that recon has to offer.

 First, what is the problem that BK is trying to solve?  From my observations it was a continual cycle of spawn then die by sniper.  Over and over again.  Many players would simply farm the spawn locations for easy kills.  Fun for them...frustrating for the victims to die before they can get their bearings.  Additionally there is a significant balance issue due to the combination of slow moving targets, one hit kill weapons and elimination of concealment (by a recon player's use of the PLD).  I've tried the recon kit with this combo and it's a simple process of put the PLD dot on a target, swap to rifle, instant win.  Easy. Boring.  Frustrating for the victims.

 However, complete removal of the recon kit leads to additional problems.  Loss of the spawn beacon is a significant one.  This eliminates a whole aspect of tactical play.  Loss of the MAV means there is no good counter for EOD BOTS and Mortars.

 The true solution to this problem, in my opinion, would be to change the spawn points so that they are in areas of complete cover.    If this is not something a server admin can do, then the next best solution would be removal of the PLD or the one-hit-kill rifles by some sort of server-based automation or configuration.

 Is there a way to allow players to type "!rules" ?  Many new names to the server see the "no run" and think it's silly.  I've seen many players say this, then when they learn the conditions where they can run to cover, many will then comply and stay to play.

 Any chance of increasing the number of objective based games over that of death-match?

 Thanks to BK for continuing to operate and administer the crouch server.  It's a far better experience than the headless chicken game of sprint and gun that Battlefield has become.

Regards,
Holgaph
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TwoFour




Joined: Mar 13, 2011
Posts: 2064
Location: Owen Sound, Ontario, Canada

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

Luke, removing Recon from BF4 creates an unbalanced game. Every Class has its place. The designers of BF4 did their homework on this.
Not to doubt your findings for numbers in Server 1, but Gametracker shows a steady decline from Nov.29th-Dec29th.
Lets be selective with Map choices. There will always be some Maps that accommodate Snipers more than others.
I really hope the "Seniors" will listen to the members that play on the Crouch Server. Again, in BF3 which server brought more new members into BK and lasted the longest....??
In closing...

BK attracted me because of:       1) Crouch Rule
                                                2) Language both Verbal and Text is to be kept clean
                                                3) All Weapons and All Perks.

I do want what is best for BK Members and Guests that play on our Crouch Server. I will Trust the decision made by our Senior Officers.

TwoFour
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BananaConvention




Joined: Dec 16, 2013
Posts: 13


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

The classes are balanced when there is no crouch rule.  When you add in slow moving targets, the recon class becomes decidedly OVERbalanced due to the lethality of their weapons.  Removing the bolt guns or the recon class as a whole is the right decision if you intend to keep the crouch.
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MacTheKnife




Joined: May 08, 2013
Posts: 4
Location: Grand Rapids, MI

Status: Offline

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:09 pm Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

Isn't there a way to eliminate only the sniper rifle?  I've played in pistol only servers that auto-kick a player if they kill an enemy with anything other than a pistol. Can this functionality not be used to enforce a "no bolt-action" policy?
This would allow for the useful gadgets of the recon class without the one hit kill rifles.

Other than that, the loss of the recon class doesn't bother me at all. I still have as much fun playing now as before. I just go to a different server if I get the urge for a sniper session.
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Zmax




Joined: Sep 16, 2011
Posts: 52
Location: Massachusetts

Status: Offline

PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:16 pm Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

OK here is my thought on the NO ROCON rule.  I still say in the spirit of BK ( POLITE & FRIENDLY )  NOT to use foul language is a GOOD part of this clan's background this is confusing me that why can we not enforce good player ethic's with spawn killing?  YES does it happen, YES that's not the problem the problem is when players take unfair advantage of span killing to me this is not the BK way...  I have a problem because of theses players I loose the right to use the recon class, in other words they screw up I loose?  Possible solution add to bad con spawn killing to be used for excessive spawn killing ONLY.  Now what is considered excessive spawn killing that would be up to the officer of BK.  PLEASE consider the BK players that play with the true sprit of BK ( POLITE &  FRIENDLY ) ............




Last edited by Zmax on Sun Dec 29, 2013 7:18 pm; edited 2 times in total
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X-Tatic




Joined: Jan 11, 2011
Posts: 87
Location: Piatra Neamt, Romania

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

To me the problem wasn't the recon, it's the 1-shot kill. It's not even a 1-shot kill as the main problem, but when there is 0 chance to avoid it because the BF4 spawn system is broken.

Taking Recon out makes little difference since DMR and Shotgun slugs are still allowed.


BF1 STATS

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Tipster




Joined: Jul 30, 2011
Posts: 1039
Location: Chilliwack B.C.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 5:57 pm Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

Like I suggested before I think we should have IMF days like in WaW where there is no recon on days with a T and recon is ok on other days . Someone who parachutes to a rooftop and sets up a spawn beacon is not setting it up for their team members. They are setting up to snipe period. I think the problem most of us didn't like was spawning taking 2 steps and getting killed. I found that the game really slowed down with recon because that is what the majority of players switched to. Recon players would just sit and rack up the points with easy kills, not much fun for others players. But everyone has the right to play the way they want. In WaW IMF days seems to be working out very well. BK servers are leaders not followers, that is why we are so successful. I hope the officers vote to give IMF days a trial run to see if it will work on BF4 server 1.


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UchiMata




Joined: Mar 08, 2010
Posts: 1934
Location: Northampton, UK

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 29, 2013 6:07 pm Post subject: Re: BattleField 4 Server 1 No Recon Feed Back Forum Quote Post

I originally thought that the No-Recon rule would reduce the number of spawn-kills from a distance. It basically makes no difference as some players are content to camp the spawn points with other weapons.

I would like to see Recon class allowed so that beacons can be dropped in places that cannot be easily camped and provide some protection. The other gadgets are handy in that they can be used to even the game and at least try and spot the enemy for a team-mate.

I rarely play on Server 1 as it is not fun.

In the BK rules:
* Spawn-camping is not explicitly disallowed, so you can 'tactically wait' as long as you want to. Good and bad depending on whether you are giving or receiving.
* All weapons and perks allowed, except IMF Days (WAW) and Shotgun Fridays (BlkOps).



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