Hello.  Let me introduce myself; I'm a 37 year old software engineer living in the Austin, Tx area and an avid player of CODWOW -- trust me when I say.. I know games.. .

I very much enjoy your servers as I feel they bring the right atmosphere for my play style as well as generally weeding out folks who I otherwise wouldn't want to play with..  Thank you for that..

I have thoroughly familiarized myself with your rules and follow them to the letter.  I like the rules and wish there was a way you could make them server enforced but understand why you can't..  More over,  I understand there are a lot of folks who don't and your admin staff have to be fairly active in patrolling the server for just such cases..  

I'm noticing of late though a lot of "power trippy" behaviour on the part of some of your admin.  There have been several instances where I was told  to stop running for example, when I hadn't been running..  (I generally always play with pistol sight up and not crouched which is legal by your rules.)

Another time when I was under fire by one of your BK admin I did run.. I ran towards him shooting trying to kill him, while he was trying to kill me..  I was strafing but it didn't do any good.. he got me.. Good shot..

He then told me "No running".  I contested this to the server and said I was only running because I was under fire.. by him.. and that he killed me.. (clearly proving I was under fire).. at which point he and another admin told me that they could ban me for arguing..

Now.. wait a minute.. if you wrongly accuse me of something.. I'm not allowed to defend myself at all?   Its not like I cursed or broke any rules in defending myself or generally acted poorly.. I just stated that I DID run but was clearly under fire.. (as he killed me..)

If I have done wrongly here.. I need to know.. the rule seems to imply that I am allowed to run while underfire.. I strafed left and right and ran down the hallway towards him, to my doom..  Is this legal?

He seemed to think that wasnt what happened.. I don't know what they thinks he saw but that's what happened,  

Rather than discuss it though (which I'm open to obviously since I'm here), the admin in question reverted to wielding the "I win the argument or ban you" club by saying that he would ban me if I continued to argue... that seems a bit blunt or heavy handed and frankly uncalled for..

This concerns me and I wanted to voice my concern for the good of the server as a whole.  If these servers are the kind of well admined servers I believe they are, then I know this sort of thing wont be tolerated by you either..  I just want to know what your stances on this sort of thing are..

I have intentionally left the names of the two admin out of this in order to first get your opinions and thoughts before any finger pointing starts happening..

If I as a player feel that I have been wrongly accused of something do I have any recourse?   what stops an admin from issuing a ban when one wasnt deserved?  Do I have the right to contest either a ban or a warning and what are they?  

My concern there is that now I have x number of marks against me which will ultimately ban me for ..e ven though I don't feel I have broken any rules..

Thoughts?

Hello Vihra I was wondering what was the IP of the server you where in. We recently let go of one of our servers and replaced it with a new one. A new team now owns that server so I wanted to make sure we are talking about the right admins.

If it was a *BK* server please let me know the time and date when this happened so I can look into it farther.

GOA.Luke*BK*

---

Hi luke,

8.12.70.136:28960 which I believe is server #2

Pretty sure its still the BK server as all the usual BK members haunt it.. =)

And this happend today about 20 minutes before my original post.  THanks.

Vihra, first let me thank you for stopping in here and stating your point politely.  I appreciate it and I'm sure that everyone else here does also.  While I wasn't on the server at the time, be certain that the powers that be will be investigating the incident, I would like to point out something.  While it is allowable to run if under fire.  I believe that you cannot fire while running.  While your incident is on the line between the rules, I still believe, from my understanding of the rules, that you needed to cease running when you fired.  Otherwise, this can all too easily be seen as a run and gun tactic.  I may be corrected there if I'm wrong, but, as I said..that is my interperation of the rules.  As for the other stuff.  That is for the those of higher rank to investigate.  I hope this helps clarify some.  Again, thank you for voicing your concern.  I look forward to meeting you on the battlefied!

---

Okay the OP says 9pm.. it was closer to 3CST I have no idea what the time zone of the server is versus your web server..

Although not present for the described event, as an admin,  I too appreciate you concern for our servers.  I am pleased that you game on the BK Servers and took the time to post.  During the course of admim training the instructiions I received (along with the other admins that were being trained at that time) is that you may run when under fire, being naded or crossing wide wide open areas.  You may not run at someone when under fire to kill them. but away from them to avoid death.  As previoulsy mentioned that would be tantamount to a run and gun server if people were shooting and running at each other.  We also try to avoid debates about the rules on the welcome channel as well as politics, religion and race (at any time).  I think you may understand the reasoning here.  However, you may request that you be taken to a private channel on team speak where you may voice your concern.  Perhaps it should have been done  in this case as well where you could have had a discussion and hopefully got your concern cleared up on the spot.  And finally, you may always post an appeal on the forums just as you have done here with your concern,.  Where that post will be responded to by someone in the BK officer corps, just as GOA. Luke as done in this case.  I hope this post sheds a little more light on the subject.  I cannot speak for GOA.LUKE, but I am confident he will investigate your concerns and get back to you.   Please remember that the BK admin staff does its very best to enforce the rules evenly while trying to keep game play fair for everyone.  With the  three servers going and at times quite full, admins can be very busy.  Thanks again for your concern and post.  I hope to see you in the game and playing on the BK servers.

---

I think the main issue here is people firing at a player who ran away from it. Apparently I wasn't clear about this and need to become better at that. You may run when under fire. You may fire back when under fire. Some times when you are spectating a player its hard to tell if they are under fire at times. I'm very sorry about the miss communication.

I will bring this post to the admin meeting we will be having shortly. Please visit us on TS some time soon.

GOA.Luke*BK*

---

Hello, Vihra and thanks for stopping by.  We really appreciate yuor feedback.

I, like my friends here, was not on the server during the time of the incident.  However, if one of the admins got over zealous, I apologize.  On the flip side, it is sometimes hard to watch everything and keep everything straight.  It is possible there had been someone running and they incorrectly named you as the culprit.  Or, it could be that the misinterpeted the situation.  Not excusing if you were mistreated, but from a member of BK that also monitors the servers, I understand some of the potential pitfalls.

We want our servers to be enjoyable for both our BK members and our many guests, like yourself.  Thank you for calmly stating your concern so that we can reach that goal.

By the way, on a side note, PM me and let me know which company you are a SWE for.  Even though I am in the Atlanta area, my management is in Austin.  I work for a big tech company with offices there is Austin.

Hope to see you on the servers!

---

SMACKY - MOLON LABE

We try to enforce the rules because without the rules and the admin and spectators these servers would be run and gun, anything goes nonsense and most civilized people would not enjoy such chaos. Tactical realism requires people to obey the rules and the rules may be found at BKops2.com. Thank you for your thorough explanation. If you know the names of the admins then please email them to me at wesleymeyer [at] hotmail [dot] com

---

This is a tough call.
I think theres alot of confusion when this situation arises.
Personally I think if you are going to run when under fire then you must run for cover and not go directly for the person that is firing at you with your bullets flying in retaliation as this constitutes the 'run and gun' problem.
As this is tactical realism, I think that if in 'real life' you would run from an attacker then you should use this idea in the game.
If you get fired upon, you would not turn and run toward the asailant as you know they would have the best chance of killing you first.
Its only my idea on the matter and as I was told during the admin meetings to use the same style tactics you would expect in real life scenarios, this is my thought on your matter.
Im sorry if its not what you wanted to hear (as you thought what you were doing was correct) and I hope im putting across what I was told correctly......
Thanks for the input and thanks for taking time to share it with us.
Hope you dont get put off by this little misunderstanding.

---

I just want to say sometimes it takes awhile to type in warnings and a running incident can be awhile back and forgotten by the  time  it shows on screen...(with all the action happening) Thanks for telling BK  though.They will check into it..

---

Huh??  

Vihra, buddy!!

I'm so sorry to hear that this happened!! Yes, it would be my understanding as well that running and firing towards someone who is firing at you would be against the rules, especially for an extended distance.  I believe they just ruled you could run to knife someone a few steps away if they are facing you and its life or death... I know our GOA will take care of this matter though and it is a warning to us all to make sure we keep in check. I do know yesterday we had someone arguing and being difficult in-game at one point and that can get frustrating for all players in the server but we must keep ourselves in check and remember to be POLITE AND FRIENDLY

THANKS AGAIN FOR BRINGING THIS TO OUR ATTENTION, HOPE TO KILL YA SOON!! Huh??

YOUR BUD AND FRIENDLY NEIGHBORHOOD SPECTATOR SNIPER, HuH*BK*

LADYHAWK wrote (View Post):

This is a tough call.
As this is tactical realism, I think that if in 'real life' you would run from an attacker then you should use this idea in the game.
If you get fired upon, you would not turn and run toward the asailant as you know they would have the best chance of killing you first..

Actually that's entirely incorrect.   Military training (modern as well as training during the WW2 era) is to charge an attacker and an ambush.   If you're being shot at, you move towards them not away.

Modern law enforcement also employs the same methodology.  You move to the shooter.  Not away.

I being a concealed weapon permit holder and soon to be criminal justice major know that you always retreat under GUNFIRE even though you may be returning fire in a real life gunfight you would retreat to the nearest cover! I also realize the difficulty in watching the servers. Like brought up before sometimes by the time you take the time to type it the player doesn't even realize they did something cuz they are halfway across the map. I always give players the benefit [u]SEVERAL times before i usually give the first warning even. We representing BK should always give the benefit of the doubt as well  we sometimes might not see/hear  that grenade or shots being fired. I also appologize for anything that could have been misunderstood in this situation, but with all the work it takes to keep the servers under control I'm sure mistakes are sometimes made. Thats why i give everyone many chances before i even say anything.

---

You have a 4 hour CCH class and are going to college soon to learn, but don't have the knowledge yet =)..

I on the other hand, being a former commissioned Texas law enforcement officer (4 years) and a former US Army soldier (5 years), can assure you that you move TO the shooter or shooters..  

Its how we were trained..  You engage the shooter.  In the army the idea is to engage the enemy as soon as possible so you (or more likely your buddies behind you) see ALL the targets and can deal with them.. (as they step over your corpse most likely.hehe)    As a law enforcement officer you move to the shooter as quickly as possible in order to keep civilian casualties to a minimum.  (Especially after the columbine shootings.. law enforcement changed their methods radically.. )

Now of course, when real metal starts zipping around you're more likely to duck.. but you still move to the shooter, not away.  

You're welcome to disagree of course, but the training I have personally received states otherwise.



Last edited by Toiletdk on Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:57 pm; edited 1 time in total